Culture Over Coffee
Culture Over Coffee
Why Are More Employees Returning to the Office? with Stephanie Downs
In this episode, we’re continuing our season-long, deep dive into ENGAGE 2024: The Company Culture Report by asking: “Why are more employees returning to the office?”
As you can probably guess, it’s here that we’ll tackle the ever-shifting attitudes around “where we work.”
Helping me explore these new findings on work preferences is Stephanie Downs, SVP/Senior Consultant at The Center for Sales Strategy.
Stephanie makes so many amazing points, like:
- How managers often point to a seeming lack of accountability as one of the main reasons for pulling their people back into the office.
- Why it’s impossible to please everyone when it comes to the “right” work model, but, still, everyone’s perspectives should be considered.
- And, finally, how there are a plethora of ways to make your virtual meetings as invigorating and energizing as those in-person.
LINKS:
ENGAGE 2024: The Company Culture Report
Stephanie Downs
Beth Sunshine
Up Your Culture
Hello and welcome to Culture Over Coffee, a podcast focused on improving company culture and fostering employee engagement. Every week, we chat with experts and thought leaders about the latest information and proven practices you can use to reduce regrettable turnover, increase productivity on your team and retain key customers. So pour a cup of your favorite brew and join us. I'm your host, Beth Sunshine, SVP at Up, your Culture and the Center for Sales Strategy.
Beth Sunshine:In this episode, we're continuing our season-long deep dive into ENGAGE 2024: The Company Culture Report, by asking why are more employees returning to the office? As you can probably guess, it's here that we'll tackle the ever-shifting attitudes around where we work. Helping me explore these new findings on work preferences is Stephanie Downs, SVP, Senior Consultant at The Center for Sales Strategy. Stephanie helps us understand how managers often point to a seeming lack of accountability as one of the main reasons for pulling their people back into the office. Why it's impossible to please everyone when it comes to the right work model, but still everyone's perspective should be considered. And, finally, how there are a plethora of ways to make your virtual meetings as invigorating and energizing as those in person. Hi, Stephanie, and thank you for joining me today for Culture Over Coffee.
Stephanie Downs:I am very glad to be here.
Beth Sunshine:Glad to have you. As you know, this season we're digging into the ENGAGE 2024 Culture Report and we're discussing some of the key takeaways. I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Many organizations are still working to get their work model right, to set the right expectations, and I love to just have my ear to the ground and know what's happening there, because it's a pretty hot topic. So that's what we're going to dig into today. Thank you for joining. We're going to jump right in.
Beth Sunshine:So last year's Engage survey found that most people worked at least part of the week outside of the office and also most people believed that they'd stay that way. They'd remain hybrid or remote moving forward. At that time, a tiny percentage only 17% of people surveyed thought that they would return to the office full time, which I found striking last year, but I also find it striking this year because that means a lot of people were probably surprised by the number of companies that brought their people back to the office. We saw now more than half of our Engage 2024 respondents currently work in an office every day. So I want to get your take on this, because you're knee deep, working with organizations every day In your mind. What do you think changed?
Stephanie Downs:Yeah, I have to admit I was surprised too. So what changed? I have to admit I'm a little surprised that this is still as big of a topic as it is. I am too. I really am surprised by that. And I'm still having this conversation I wouldn't say all the time, but still relatively more frequently than I would think. But one of the things that I think in talking to a lot of sales leaders about this conversation the root of it usually is accountability. I'm surprised at how often that leaders are really saying they feel like they don't have as much accountability on their team if they're not in office and I think that's driving some of the migration, of the change of things continuing to happen and I'm surprised by that. But it's, I think, the root of it's accountability.
Beth Sunshine:Interesting, which I think kind of borders on trust. So I want to kind of think about that a lot, a little bit. So, thinking about the clients that you work with and those conversations that you're having, is there a workplace model that you just personally believe is the best?
Stephanie Downs:A hybrid. That's a really easy answer because I think it appeals to both sides of it right. For those that don't want to be in office full-time, it's a nice go-between, and for those that want to be home full-time or totally remote, it's a good balance between the two and actually the survey shows that that is a favored response. I think the number was 52 percent said that they actually prefer the hybrid work model and that seems to work well. I have other thoughts on that. We can talk about that more in a minute, but I would say for sure that's interesting.
Beth Sunshine:That's interesting and you're right, it's. Hybrid is still the overall fan favorite, but it's interesting. When I talk to people, hybrid looks so different depending on who I'm talking to, what industry, what organization. Yeah, and a lot of organizations are struggling to figure out what the right hybrid model should look like for them. One thing I know for sure, after really getting in pretty deep with a lot of customers on this, is it is impossible to please everyone.
Stephanie Downs:That one conclusion I have drawn and stop trying to please everyone.
Beth Sunshine:Yes, you're just not going to no, I agree. So you need to figure out what is best, and our research shows that employees and you sort of alluded to this, employees, individual contributors they tend to lean toward a schedule that includes less time in the office, while managers prefer spending more time in the office and also having their people more time more frequently in the office. So you know, kind of digging into the trust factor accountability. What is your take on that? When it comes to establishing a hybrid model, is there a best practice you'd recommend, or does it depend on the industry or the company or the team?
Stephanie Downs:Yes, so best practice, and I truly don't mean to oversimplify this at all, because it's not an easy decision and I get that because you're not going to appeal to everybody but truly pick one, just pick one. Stop being wishy-washy about it. I know it seems like I have the same conversations. They're like well, we're going to be back in for two days a week, or we're going to be back in for three days a week, or vice versa. Whatever it is, just pick one. I think the inconsistency of it does more damage than just having a standard practice of what that model is going to look like. And again, I don't mean to oversimplify it. I know it's not an easy decision.
Beth Sunshine:Yeah, but I hear what you're saying. People want a clear vision. They want to know what they want.
Stephanie Downs:Yeah, and then they can schedule their life around Right, right, yeah.
Beth Sunshine:Right. So how should a company let's that? How do they determine what the right hybrid schedule is, knowing employees want more time out of the office, managers want more time in. Is there a good way to do this?
Stephanie Downs:I would recommend getting input from the team. I mean you just think about from a culture standpoint and it doesn't mean we're going to make a decision by committee, because that doesn't work either. But people want to be heard, they want their voice in the matter, they want to be listened to, they want to be asked their opinion. Maybe do a survey with the team and get input, what works best for the team, and then you maybe can make a better data-driven decision of what that is. And of course there's the variables, if it is more, if it's being driven from a corporate decision or down to the market level decision, because it seems to be a pretty widespread of how that's coming about. But maybe survey the team and ask them their opinion. I like that.
Beth Sunshine:I know one radio station that I'm currently working with they're really struggling with some culture issues and one of the roots of that is that the sales team, the sales part of the house, they're able to work hybrid. That alone just the discrepancy there is at issue. So I guess part of the things to consider is you know, will we have one expectation for everybody, or will we expect different things of different people?
Stephanie Downs:Yeah, and when it's made at the market level decision, there's more of that to me than if it is just more from a corporate down. But that really does vary across industries too, because I know we work with I mean, we work with a lot of media companies, but we also work with a lot of non-media companies and there does seem to be some differences between the different categories of business. I find it fascinating.
Beth Sunshine:So what would you say to companies who are forcing their employees back into the office? Because this is something that I think where we hear the loudest response. You know there's a date set. By that date everyone is going to be back in the office full time and employees are not interested, they're not wanting to do that.
Stephanie Downs:They don't want to do it.
Beth Sunshine:The company doesn't want to lose top talent, however, so what would you say?
Stephanie Downs:Build a talent bank because it doesn't matter which it is, you're likely to lose people and it doesn't mean you're going to for certain. But I would absolutely build a talent bank because you may lose people and you may know that that is going to be one of the outcomes and I would be prepared for it, and that includes superstar sales talent that some in some cases is leaving because they just don't want to be back in the office, for example, full time build a talent bank.
Beth Sunshine:I think that's so smart and once they have that policy in place, once the organization is clear on what our work model is going to be moving forward, it helps build that talent bank because now the job descriptions, the postings we can be really clear about and then people will, who are attracted to that, feel more comfortable.
Stephanie Downs:That's right, and we should be extremely transparent in our job postings and LinkedIn postings and social media postings. We should be really clear what that looks like, because you never would want to say we're one thing and then hire somebody and it be something else, right? I mean, we know that's not going to end well, right? No, no it's not.
Beth Sunshine:So we've been talking about where people kind of park it all day, but digging in more to just how they interact, how they meet, regardless of whether a company is in office, full time, hybrid or even remote. What we found in the survey is most people find in-person meetings more energizing than the virtual meetings. Right, I think that makes sense. But sometimes, due to budget constraints or logistic issues, it's just hard to gather everyone together and sometimes it's just not possible. I know, at Up your Culture we often say it's not where you work, it's just not possible. I know it up your culture, we often say it's not where you work, it's how you work. You could be fully remote with a thriving culture. Yep, fully remote with a terrible culture.
Stephanie Downs:Same.
Beth Sunshine:Thing goes for in office. So what tips or tactics would you recommend that might make virtual meetings, when they're necessary, just feel more invigorating? More inspiring a little bit more like those in-person meetings.
Stephanie Downs:Ok, so I have lots that I could share. Don't let me off along the way. So one don't have meetings that aren't necessary. So let's start there. If it's not a meeting that has value to the audience, don't have the meeting. Meeting that has value to the audience, don't have the meeting. Also, don't have meetings that are more of just the homework checklist of here's the things to do and what has to get done. That can live in an email right.
Stephanie Downs:Another thing that I have really found with meetings in a remote or virtual environment send some assignment ahead of time. Come prepared with X so people feel like they are contributing to the meeting. They're more likely to be engaged in the meeting because it's a topic that they're sharing. Maybe have like a learning and development segment in the meeting so people feel like they're getting something useful that they could walk away with and use that same day. People want to find value in the meetings. Make sure there is value in the meetings. Don't let any one person share for more than 10 minutes at a time. Pull in multiple voices in the meeting and also consider having team meetings that are smaller, more specific to that group, versus big meetings where it doesn't apply to everybody on the meeting I love that I feel free to keep going.
Beth Sunshine:But that's good stuff. What I'm hearing from you is don't have a meeting. That could be an email, that's right. People want to feel like whatever they're doing at the meeting is contributing and, while they're there, grow them, develop them. Yeah, you know, give them a gift back. That's right, um I like this group, I that's. That's a nice takeaway. I guess that could be more brainstorming collaboration.
Stephanie Downs:These are, I assume, people who you're working more tightly with you'd recommend right and use a sales organization for an example, because we obviously we work with a lot of those and but sometimes, when you're talking to salespeople specifically, you know their role in the organization. I mean account managers and account coordinators. They're all really important. I mean, we can't do what we do every day without them. But sometimes there's training topics that are more specific to the sales people you know, part of a process they need to get better at.
Stephanie Downs:for example, that doesn't necessarily apply to everybody else. There's a time to have the meeting with everybody, for sure, but there's also a time that maybe you don't need to do that, but there's also a time that maybe you don't need to do that. Both can work.
Beth Sunshine:But think about that. I like that. I like that a lot, all right. So earlier I mentioned last year's survey and how only 17% thought that they'd be back in an office right now. Now that number has grown, so people are seeing the tides change. Our latest survey shows that 40% of people now believe they're going to be in an office full-time, moving forward in their role. I think it's hard to know what the future will bring, but thinking about the industries, the organizations you work with, when you look into your crystal ball into the future, what do you see as the likely future of work from a high level?
Stephanie Downs:Oh, if only I had that crystal ball. I could say one thing, and then you could ask me this question next week and I would have a different piece of information and I may would answer it differently.
Stephanie Downs:I don't know that it's going to continue changing too drastically. I think it's going to ebb and flow both directions a little bit in all fairness. But again, I said this at the top of the call I can't believe we're still talking about it to the degree that everybody's still talking about it, but I doubt there's drastic changes Very interesting.
Beth Sunshine:Every time we look at the questions we're going to ask on our survey, for the next year's survey, we debate. Do we still ask those hybrid? You know these questions, those hybrid you know these questions and it's still a hot topic. So yes, we do.
Stephanie Downs:Yeah, all right.
Beth Sunshine:What would you say are the advantages and disadvantages of requiring employees to return to the office? If you have a listener right now who's like, okay, I like the advice of just pick one and go with it. You know, set it in stone and they're weighing it. What would you put on their pro-con list?
Stephanie Downs:Yeah, it really there's no. Again, we said this. There's no simple answer to this, but it really depends on the individual. In some cases there's advantages. For those that, like that, are social and like the energy they get from being with people, they like the water cooler talk, they like the group, think of being in the same office and the vibe of that, it's an advantage, I mean, it's a positive. But for those that really don't want to be there, it's a disadvantage and I really think that there's going to be some risk of losing people potentially if you're really forcing the hand one way or the other and the team doesn't want that or the individual doesn't want that. So, truly, there's advantages and disadvantages. Yeah, yeah, it's not a. It's not as black and white as we would like that to be Right, it's just not possible.
Beth Sunshine:Yep, Yep, but just know that it's like musical chairs right, the music's going to stop and people are going to land and they might somewhere, but others may, yeah, come come to you. So how can company leaders, people, managers regardless of how many people wanted to come back to the office, let's, let's go with. They're forcing their hand, which is what I'm seeing a lot of, making their employees come back. They know that not everybody wants to be there. Any ideas for how to increase productivity, increase engagement, you know, help people feel better about the new model, for sure.
Stephanie Downs:Hyper focus on culture, just absolutely hyper focus on it. So shameless plug. Yes, you could hire up your culture, which we would highly recommend. However it's, if you're doing it on your own, at least start somewhere, because I mean, you say culture, that's a big, broad topic, but think about all of the opportunities just to have a more engaging environment. The main thing, though, is you have to have a clear mission. You have to have a clear vision. I would start there, if nothing else. Make sure that is well defined within your organization, and then start thinking of all of the ways that you can live that out through. You know daily meetings and what you're aiming for, and how you introduce new initiatives in the organization. Does it align with the mission and vision, et cetera?
Beth Sunshine:That's a great place. On culture yeah, a great place to start, certainly, focus on culture. But you're right, it's an enormous topic, huge topic. Where, how do you focus on it? I love, I love your advice, which is, you know, just be crystal clear on who you are, your mission, your vision, your values, so that people can latch onto it. I think, in general, human nature is to want to belong to something that they believe in, that they find meaningful. If they're going to spend so many hours at work, so, great, great advice.
Beth Sunshine:Spend so many hours at work so great, great advice. All right, well, stephanie, thank you for spending time with me today. I could chat with you about culture over coffee all day long. You shared a lot of great information, some great ideas that I'm sure our listeners have found valuable. So, if it's okay with you, we're going to drop your LinkedIn information in the show notes. Does that work? Yes, good. And then those listening, you can connect with Stephanie, engage with her some more. We'll also add a link to the Engage 2024 company culture report in there so you can dig into the work model segment and anything else that interests you and, as we wrap up, remember that a strong company culture begins with you. Thanks so much for spending time with us on Culture Over Coffee. If you've enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe and join us for every episode For more helpful information on the topics of company culture and employee engagement.
Stephanie Downs:Visit us at upyourculturecom.
