ENGAGE 2023: Earned Trust

In this episode, we’re wrapping up our exploration of ENGAGE 2023: The Company Culture Report by focusing on our findings that relate to Earned Trust.  

It’s in this section of the report that we asked questions connected to feelings of Autonomy, Integrity and Accountability. 

Returning to the show to help break it all down is Deborah Fulghum, Engagement Specialist here at Up Your Culture, and Matt Sunshine, CEO at The Center for Sales Strategy 

As always, both Deborah and Matt share so many great insights, like: 

• Why trust is a key ingredient to a company’s growth and expansion 
• How company leaders need to foster trust with tenured employees just as fervently as they do with newer hires 
• And, lastly, how true transparency (sharing the good news and the bad news) makes your employees feel that much more like members of a team. 

Links:

ENGAGE 2023: The Company Culture Report

Deborah Fulghum

Matt Sunshine

Beth Sunshine

Up Your Culture

TIMESTAMPS:
(03:18) 30% of the people don't have faith in the integrity of all of their company leaders
(04:53) 42% of managers sometimes or rarely do what they say they're gonna do
(06:00) Why is it so important for people to feel trusted by their leaders?
(08:42) Deb, how do you recommend that leaders demonstrate that they trust their people?
(11:27) The longer an employee worked at a company, the less likely they were to have faith in the integrity of their company leaders
(15:46) Be transparent when the news is AND isn't great
(19:32) People respond to positives so much more than negatives
(21:56) Under promise and over-deliver
(22:47) The importance of town hall meetings
(24:50) How do leaders know how transparent they should be during town hall meetings?

Transcript

Beth Sunshine: (00:15)
Hello and welcome to Culture Over Coffee, a podcast focused on improving company culture and fostering employee engagement. Every week we chat with experts and thought leaders about the latest information and proven practices you can use to reduce regrettable turnover, increase productivity on your team, and retain key customers. So, pour a cup of your favorite brew and join us. I'm your host, Beth Sunshine, SVP at Up Your Culture in the Center for Sales Strategy.

Beth Sunshine: (00:50)
In this episode, we're wrapping up our exploration of Engage 2023, the company Culture Report by focusing on our findings that relate to earned trust. It's in this section of a report that we ask questions connected to feelings of autonomy, integrity, and accountability. We're returning to the show. To help break it all down is Deborah Fulghum, the engagement Specialist here at Culture. And Matt Sunshine, CEO at the Center for Sales Strategy. As always, both Deb and Matt share so many great insights like why trust is a key ingredient to a company's growth and expansion, how company leaders need to foster trust with tenured employees just as ly as they do with newer hires. And lastly, how true transparency, sharing the good news and the bad news, makes your employees feel that much more like members of a team.

Beth Sunshine: (01:46)
All right. Hello, Matt and Deb, and thank you for joining me today for the tail end of our Culture Over Coffee season. Uh, focus on the ENGAGE 2023 report. As you know, we've been exploring all of the key findings from that culture report, discussing what the data tells us, and really thinking about how we can help organizations use this information to, you know, improve employee engagement to improve their culture. So I'm really excited. Today we're going to focus on the fourth engagement elevator, which is earn trust. In my personal opinion, it's sort of the glue that holds it all together. Um, this elevator earned trust. It's all about giving people confidence in the company, the decisions that company's making, faith in the integrity of their managers and their leaders. So a lot to talk about. I cannot wait to get your perspectives on this. I'm so glad you could both join us because you bring very different perspectives and I think that's gonna be really cool. So, are you ready to jump in? Let's do it. Absolutely. Okay, here we go. First, you have both. I know. Read the report yourselves. And I just wanna start by asking if anything jumped out to you specifically related to erm, trusts or in integrity? Anything jump off the page, Matt, I'll start with you.

Matt Sunshine: (03:00)
Oh, sure. Um, first of all, the, the report's amazing and you know, that, um, but it is amazing. The, the big thing that jumped off the page for me so much so that I wanted to make sure I read it correctly, um, was just that 30% of the people don't have faith in the integrity of all of their company leaders. I mean, 30%. Like, that's like if you're sitting with, with, uh, with a group of people and you look to your left and you look to the right, one of you , one of you does not have faith in the integrity of all the leaders, which is awful. . I mean, that's

Beth Sunshine: (03:46)
Terrible. Yeah. So

Matt Sunshine: (03:46)
Sad. But, but even more than that. So, and this is a little bit in there, was the fact that, and, and I think we're gonna get into this later, so I'll just kind of give the headline is, is that people come into an organization with all kinds of mm-hmm.  hope and trust from, from from the get-go. They start out trusting and then over time it goes downhill. And that was remarkable to me that that was remarkable. That, that when you look at the difference between someone that's been there zero to six months and four plus years, the person zero to six is filled with Yeah. I trust the people that I work for. I think they have integrity. People that have been there four plus years are like, not so much.

Beth Sunshine: (04:37)
Right. Honeymoon period I guess comes to an end. Yeah. And that's sad

Matt Sunshine: (04:42)
Dis it's disappointing.

Beth Sunshine: (04:43)
It is. It is. Yeah. Interesting. For sure. Deb, how about you? What stood out

Deborah Fulghum: (04:48)
To you? Yeah, the, the 30% stood out to me too. I, um, made note of that, but the one that really was bothersome to me is that 42% of managers who sometimes are rarely do what they say they're gonna do. Right. That's how people believe them. They don't, or see them, they don't believe that they're gonna follow through or do it. So that breakdown of trust is, that's just happens. That percentage just astounds me. I just can't believe that number is so high.

Beth Sunshine: (05:17)
Yeah. That was a Oh my goodness. Staff too. Yeah.

Deborah Fulghum: (05:20)
Will Robinson moment, right?

Beth Sunshine: (05:22)
. . All right. Well, we're gonna get into both of those things. Um, and a couple other things as well. So my first question for you, just, you know, kind of putting the premise out there, I think we all know that when people feel micromanaged, it leads to a lot of, you know, a loss of engagement, lack of engagement, a lot of toxicity in the workplace. It's really rarely a good thing. I was thrilled to see, talking about some positives here, I was thrilled to see that 90% of our survey respondents believe that they have enough autonomy to do their work effectively. I thought that was was great news. Um, but related to that, Matt, in your experience, why is it so important for people to feel trusted by their leaders And giving you a kind of a part two here, is it more difficult in today's work environment when so many are working hybrid or remote to, to establish this kind of trust?

Matt Sunshine: (06:16)
So I'll start with the second one first, and the answer is absolutely not. It has nothing to do with it. That is, that is ridiculous. And anybody that says that is, is they got other issues. The, the distance between you and that person, whether it's it's inches, feet, miles, does, oceans does not matter. Trust super important, like incredibly important because if you want the organization to grow, and I'm a growth mind, I have a growth mindset. If you want the organization to grow you, you can't do absolutely everything. You're limited. And, and if you don't trust that the people that you're working with can do it, you're not in alignment with them. Like, like everyone knows that we're trying to get to here. I trust that you'll figure out the very best way to get there. When you, when you have that trust allows for expansion, it allows for, um, new ideas to come to, to flourish.

Matt Sunshine: (07:24)
And I'll give you a really good example. Um, years ago when I was a, um, I, I had a leadership role in the company where I was working. I was responsible for an event, an event that took place where 16 people from around the country all gathered together at a corporate office for a three day, um, uh, workshop. Okay. And I remember saying to the person that was the CEO, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for, um, I remember saying to him, what's my budget to do this? And I remember he simply said, he goes, well, I trust you. He said, I, I I trust that you won't spend anything more than you need to spend, and that you'll spend everything that you need to spend in order to do an amazing workshop. We have alignment in what we're trying to get accomplished. I trust that you'll get it done. You tell me what the budget should be. I cause of that, I was able to do so much more and I didn't spend over amount of money. I mean, I, I was able to, to, um, feel good about what I did. So I think trust is incredibly important. Mm-hmm.

Beth Sunshine: (08:35)
Great story too. That really kind of paints the picture for why that can empower people. Very cool. So Deb, how do you recommend that leaders demonstrate that they trust their people? Something, you know, maybe that you've experienced like Matt shared?

Deborah Fulghum: (08:51)
Yeah, I love that story, Matt, because what they did was empower you, right? Mm-hmm. , they empowered you to be able to take something on your own, represent the company, and in a way that aligned who they are because they trusted your ability to do that. Um, I think that when someone feels empowered, it really plays that autonomy of the freedom to do something in the right way. And although I, you know, it is interesting to me cuz when I looked at that percentage breakout of that 90% autonomy, I think that's a huge, huge story there. But the other piece that I think is so vital to building trust in that piece is to be able to support people along the way. Because I'm sure Matt, you felt supported along the way. They didn't just say, go be free. Right? You felt supported. Um, they probably acknowledged your efforts along the way. They probably recognized you when you were done, so you felt like this was great. I wanna do that again. And, you know, I just think that's such a big deal and probably led to you futuristically for them to come to you and ask for your thoughts and opinions on other ideas. And that part of feeling like a trusted partner, not just an employee, really does lead to trust.

Beth Sunshine: (10:10)
So I'm hearing from you the importance of a lot of touchpoints along the way. Mm-hmm.  trust, you know, uh, show them that you trust them by empowering them, but also communicating with them, giving them feedback, um, even in the end, maybe celebrating or recognizing good work.

Deborah Fulghum: (10:27)
Yeah. Cuz I think you just don't wanna ignore someone and say, have them feel like you're handing a project off. Mm-hmm. , right? You want to let them know that you trust them. You're not gonna oversee everything but you, I don't support them along the way because that even makes you feel more trusted that they're not jumping in to do something, they're just supporting me and acknowledging that I'm doing a good job.

Beth Sunshine: (10:48)
Yeah. Yeah. Really good point. Okay, so moving on to what feels, I think a little less promising than the statistic we've been talking about so far. I wanna touch on the one, Matt, you brought up right at the very beginning, which is 30% of survey respondents said that they don't have faith in the integrity of all of their company leaders. Ouch. . That's, that's hard to read. Interestingly, the data looked the same for those working in an office and those were remote. So, um, we don't see a, a difference based on work model that doesn't seem to play a role in this. But what does seem to have an effect, like you mentioned, is tenure. The longer an employee worked at a company, the less likely they were to have faith in the integrity of their company leaders. Really powerful this time. Deb, I wanna flip it around. Start with you. Why do you think that trust in company leaders fades over time? Why does that honeymoon have to come to an end? Or does it?

Deborah Fulghum: (11:47)
My first instinct is to say there's a breakdown in the relationship, right? I think we come become complacent thinking that people know what they're supposed to do or how they, how we feel about them, that we trust them. But unless we're communicating that they don't know that, right? I mean, I really do think the relationship piece, whether it's personal relationships or professional relationships, it's a, it's something you have to work out all the time. Mm-hmm. , it's not just a one and done and think, oh, I set you up for success and I'll let you go, give you autonomy, let you not feel like I'm micromanaging you. But I do think that so often lack of response is a big deal. You know, if I don't respond to you, then you may not think that I care. I'm listening to you. Um, I think it's important to add reminders to your calendar, right?

Deborah Fulghum: (12:37)
So that if you're, if you need to follow up they on something you do. But building trusts, um, I think trust does dissipates over time. If you're not following through with people and pa or even taking people for granted because you're not taking me, making me feel like I'm important and talking me through things or like we talked about a minute ago supporting me, then over time I may not trust you. And if you're not following through on things, then I'm, that really does break down for me personally. And I think that's what happens over time with employees. You know, we've seen it so many times that anybody, especially the, the longer someone's with a company, eight, 10 years, we do see that breakdown because I, I, I just think there's a communication issue. We just believe people are set and don't need us and people always need us. Mm-hmm. , we need to remember that relationship is key.

Beth Sunshine: (13:34)
So lack of communication over time, lack of relationship over time. Interesting. Matt, anything you would add to that as far as why this may fade away? And do you have any advice as far as how company leaders can do a better job of maintaining the trust of their people even over the long haul?

Matt Sunshine: (13:54)
Yeah, so why it happens is probably because people give the, um, the benefit of not integrity versus the benefit of integrity. , right? I mean, like, they assume, they assume the worst versus assume the best. Cuz a lot of times people don't have all the information. Yeah. And based on the available information that they have, their first instinct is to think, I bet they didn't do something. Mm-hmm.  versus with limited information saying, oh, well I don't, I I can't imagine that, that this person would ever do anything like that. They give them the benefit of, of, of course they would do that, right? I mean, and, and that's, and and so how, how do you solve that? Right? How, how do you solve that? What's, how do you make that happen? I I think there's, um, I think there's three things you have to do.

Matt Sunshine: (14:54)
One is get to know your folks. Get to know the people that you're working with. Get to let them get to and let them get to know you. If someone really knows you and if you really know someone when they hear something that might be where integrity might be on the line. If they know you, if they know that person, their first instinct is gonna be, well, I know they handled it the right way, I know that person. So get to know them. The second is, as a leader, share the why. Share the why behind why you do things. Not just the, this is what we did, but give them the rest of the information. They can handle it. What's the why? And the third thing is, and this is huge with me, is transparency is not just a word, right. Transparency is how you operate.

Matt Sunshine: (15:45)
And that means being transparent when the news isn't as great. Right? It's easy to be transparent when you have tailwinds and everything is going great. Everyone wants to be transparent. Let me tell you about all great things we're doing here and this, that, and the other. Mm-hmm. , it's hard to be transparent when there's some, there's some blemishes or there's some things, there's some headwinds facing you. Some it, it's hard to do that, but that's when being transparent is maybe the most important. And if you get, have gotten to know your people, you'll be shocked at how well they respond to transparent, the transparency. It's so much better than you could ever imagined. Mm-hmm. . Cause everyone feels like they're in and, and, and I think those are the three things that people worked on. Those it would, it would start to move in the right direction. Mm-hmm.

Beth Sunshine: (16:32)
, I I love your thinking here and the hearing, you talk about transparency in that way, and even listing all three of those, it makes me think about, um, when we say people are armchair quarterbacking, they're watching the game and they have all the opinions on what the coach should have done or what the players should have done. But if you don't have the, the full picture, which you don't, you don't really, you mm-hmm. , you don't know that the wrong call was made. Um, so I'm hearing from you just a, a real need for more information in general. So you mentioned integrity and specifically in the importance of focusing on it. Now that's, I know a, a hot button for us. Integrity is one of our company's core values, so it's a big deal. I was surprised to see that 42% of the people surveyed said their managers only sometimes or rarely does, or do what they say that they're going to do.

Beth Sunshine: (17:29)
I, I, I found that stunning. Me too. And then we separated out, I know you probably noticed this, that the managers from just frontline employees, and I was so sad to see it got worse. Employees report that they can only count on their direct supervisors, whoever they report to 50% of the time. So a total crapshoot as far as whether your manager's gonna come through for you. So I wanna ask you both, first of all, what are your reactions to this? And how can managers better earn the trust of their people? And you've given some good strategies. I don't know if you have anything left in the tank, but Matt, I wanna start with you.

Matt Sunshine: (18:06)
Yeah. I think you need to celebrate it. Uh, I, I think that it's, I I think that, you know, a a lot of times people wanna punish when they don't see integrity mm-hmm. . Right. And I get that. I, I I I get that. You don't want to tolerate it cuz you know, what's that old expression? Your culture's defined by what you tolerate. Right. Tolerate. Right. And, and I get that you don't want to allow it to happen, but I think that's kind of like, everyone's got that. I think the bigger thing is celebrating integrity, celebrating doing the right thing, celebrating the, the transparency all the time so that people know that that's okay. And that's the way we do it around here. And it's not a big thing, it's just the way we do it.

Beth Sunshine: (18:52)
So don't tolerate lack of integrity. Sure. But as important or even more important is celebrate when you see the behaviors you're looking for.

Matt Sunshine: (19:00)
Is that right? Yeah. I think with the same amount of rigor that we put towards, we're not gonna tolerate a lack of integrity. Should be the, but we are going to celebrate when we see integrity.

Beth Sunshine: (19:12)
I like that. Yeah. How about you, Deb? What did you think of that? Just what we learned, 50% of employees not really feeling like they can count on their managers. And any, any other tips to

Deborah Fulghum: (19:23)
Share? Yeah, you know, it, I love what you just said, Matt, cuz so much of that celebration is more positive than thinking of the negatives. And people respond to positives so much more than negatives. I think people wait for the negative comment to come as opposed to the positives. So feeding the monster of positivity I think is so good. Um, you know, something else you mentioned a minute ago got me thinking, you know, when we were back in, when we were in offices, one of the worst things I ever thought happened would happen would be closed door meetings. Right. Because everybody's wondering, what does that mean? What's going on? Yeah. Rumors start, trust starts to break down. And I think even virtually, you know, meetings that we see on calendars or on other people's co we start thinking, what does this mean? So being open and honest with people showing that transparency, like you mentioned, I think it's vital.

Deborah Fulghum: (20:17)
You know, we talked about relationships a minute ago. I, I do think we have to show genuine care and interest in people's wellbeing to develop that, that trust as well. It can't just feel fake. It has to be very intentional. We need to care about, um, their aspirations, their dreams, their goals, their development. Because the more we do that, the more they trust us, the more they wanna open up to us and know that it's, it's more about me. Not just you trying to accomplish something or get work out of me. Being open to ideas, you know, not shooting ideas down, I think is a really smart thing. Um, Beth, you are so good at that. You're so good to being open to hearing. And Matt, you are too. Let's hear your ideas. Bring them forth. It doesn't mean we're gonna do all of those things, but we know if we have that ability to feel comfortable doing that, innovation really happens. So being an active listener and taking those ideas in is really important. I'll leave this thought, I'll leave with this thought. I, we talk about this often, that building trust takes time. When we look at our four engagement elevators, trust is the last elevator we, we spend time in because it takes time. It's not something you can demand. So if we know how much effort it goes, it takes to build trust, you know, we have to remember that it only takes one action to make that go away.

Beth Sunshine: (21:42)
That's a good point.

Deborah Fulghum: (21:43)
And so therefore we have to have a top of mind all the time. Am I following through, am I staying true to my word? Am I putting reminders in my calendar to, to follow through with somebody? If have I made a promise? I think under promising, over-delivering is one of the key things to trust.

Beth Sunshine: (22:01)
Oh, I like that. Hard to build, easy to break takes constant attention. Yeah. You know, you mentioned the closed door meeting, and I wanna get your take on sort of the, the ultimate opposite of that closed door meeting, which might be called a town hall meeting. One of our survey items ask people whether their company did those kind of town hall meetings. I sometimes call them ask me anything meetings, but meetings where they can openly ask questions, they can share their thoughts, they can really get the true scoop of what's happening in their company. And actually many did do town hall meetings, but one in four people reported that their company doesn't offer this kind of open forum. So I wanted to get your thoughts on that. And Deb, I'll I'll stick with you for just a moment. How important do you think town hall meetings are these days and why?

Deborah Fulghum: (22:52)
I think they're extremely important. It, it is that peak behind the curtain, behind that closed door. And I love our town halls. Matt does an amazing job leading our, our team with our town halls. I appreciate them so much. We actually just had one a few days ago, which, you know, it just lets us know. Um, it's that transparency which we talked about earlier. You know, where are we, where are we headed, where are some hiccups? It allows us to rally around each other and think, how can I be a part of this? How can I improve this? It just makes me feel, um, so much part of a team by knowing this information. Mm-hmm. , you know, and, and I think one of the things that always stands out to me is when Matt starts these meetings, he always says, I'm trusting you with this information.

Deborah Fulghum: (23:37)
So he's letting us know, I trust you mm-hmm.  for this, stay with us. It's internal, but I want you to know these things. And just by letting, letting us know he trusts us, we trust him too. So it's a two-way street on that. And, um, I really, it, it is always eye-opening to me. And I'm not surprised when we had these town hall meetings because you keep us abreast on things throughout, in between these meetings too. So, um, it's never, um, like we're coming to a meeting to find out bad news. Right. I think most people wait for that hammer to drop and we don't because we're always aware. So thank you Matt for that

Beth Sunshine: (24:15)
Nice job. He does, he does a really great job. I like the way, um, you just said, because he trusts us the way he says, I trust you. That makes us, I us trust him. Very interesting way to, to synthesize that. So Matt, coming to you, we've been, uh, shining the spotlight on you. You do a great town hall meeting. We call them State of the States. Um, you always ask for questions in advance and answer all of those questions. It's a real open, honest forum. So I, I want to hear from you specifically as a C E O who does this kind of thing. How do you know how transparent you should be during meetings like this? Because a lot of times leaders will ask us, you know, I I don't feel like I can tell them everything. Um, you know, so what, what are some guidelines you would recommend that other leaders follow?

Matt Sunshine: (25:07)
Yeah. Um, great question. And and it is, it is, it is. Um, it's important to really consider what you're gonna share and what you're not gonna share and what, and so first of all, some companies, all all, most companies have sometimes some legal reasons why they can't share things. And so let's just get that off the table. If there's a legal reason why you can't share things, then you can't, you can't share it. That those are the rules, right? We, we can't, we can't go around those. But I do think it's really important to always consider the ripple effect of, of what you're gonna share and to consider that perhaps just sharing this much information is not enough of the story. And so you have to be even a little bit more transparent. Um, people need all of the information to know what you're talking about, right? So you can come and you can share something, that initiative that you're doing well, that initiative. What you don't know, and, and I talk about this all the time with leadership at companies, will, the leadership at the company will spend six months considering brainstorming, problem solving, whiteboarding, all of the possible, um,

Matt Sunshine: (26:31)
All the possible changes that they might be thinking about making to make their organization better. And those, I mean, six months, maybe there is, maybe there's been 20 meetings on this and hundreds of emails that have gone back and forth. So the six people that were involved in making the decision have six months invested, 20 meetings, hundreds upon hundreds of emails, they've discussed it, twisted it, wrapped it, they're all on site. Now. You're gonna come into the town hall meeting, you're gonna say, Hey, everyone, decision's been made. We're doing this and you're gonna give it to them in one minute. Well, they don't have the benefit of knowing all the things that were considered and how you got to here. So their first reaction might be like, oh, why, what, how did you consider, so my advice is share with everyone that, hey, we're working on this.

Matt Sunshine: (27:27)
We've assembled a task force. We're looking into these things. This is gonna be our process. We're going to consider lots of things. Some of the things that we're considering are this, this, this, the criteria that we use to make the decision are these things. This is what we're doing. I think when you're transparent, you're transparent. Transparent doesn't mean making sure you tell everyone what we're doing. Sometimes it means making sure you told everyone. And I think those are the parts of the town hall that freak people out because they're like, well, I can't tell 'em just that. Well, you're, you're probably right. You can't tell 'em just that. But if you tell 'em if you, if you spend 10 minutes, it'll be worth it.

Beth Sunshine: (28:14)
Yeah. So I think what you're saying is let them see how the sausage sausage is made a little

Matt Sunshine: (28:19)
Bit. Yeah. I mean, they don't need to see every single, you don't need to re The reason why you had six people in the task force is so that not everyone has to be involved.

Beth Sunshine: (28:26)
Right, right. But the bigger picture, I like that.

Matt Sunshine: (28:29)
I always think that like this, I always think if I was hearing this, what would I think? Mm-hmm.

Beth Sunshine: (28:36)
, what would I wanna know?

Matt Sunshine: (28:37)
What would I wanna know? What would I be thinking? Does it meet that test?

Beth Sunshine: (28:41)
Love it. Okay, last question for each of you. If you could recommend one thing, and I know you could probably come up with a hundred things, but if you could recommend one thing for all company leaders to start doing right away, something they could do immediately to better earn the trust of their people, what would that one thing be? Either one of you can go first.

Matt Sunshine: (29:01)
I'll go first. If one thing that they could do, one thing that they could do, a leader. This is to the leader.

Beth Sunshine: (29:08)
Yes. Yes. One thing that every company leader should do right away to better earn the trust of their people.

Matt Sunshine: (29:15)
Commit to listening to all of the Up your culture podcast, . That's

Beth Sunshine: (29:19)
It.

Matt Sunshine: (29:21)
No, here's the thing. You, you either choose to earn trust or you choose not to earn trust. That's right. You, you make the call. Just decide. And, and if you're doing nothing, then you're choosing to do nothing.

Beth Sunshine: (29:34)
Good point. Very good point. And I, and I think part of what you're saying is it has to be consistently, you have to, whether if you decide to do something, that means do it all the time. Do it every day. So 50% of your people aren't thinking you might not do it tomorrow. Yeah. What about you, Deb? What would you recommend?

Deborah Fulghum: (29:50)
Uh, I, I think do what you say you're gonna do. Follow through on what you promise. Don't say what you think people want to hear. Do what you're really gonna do. Say what you're really gonna do. I think that's vital, cuz that's where the trust break us down. When if you're just saying whatever you think people need to hear or want to hear.

Beth Sunshine: (30:12)
Great way to end this episode. I wanna thank you both for spending time with me today talking about Culture Over Coffee. You've shared a ton of information and ideas. I know our listeners have found a lot of these things valuable. Many may be connected to you already, but for those listening, I'm going to drop Matt and Deb's LinkedIn information in the show notes so you can connect. You'll find that they're both thought leaders. They put a lot of great information out there. You'll wanna see. I'm also going to add a link to the ENGAGE 2023 culture report so you can dig into the data yourself, see what findings interest you. And as we wrap up, remember, regardless of what role you play in your organization, a strong company culture starts with you. Thanks so much for spending time with us on Culture Over Coffee. If you've enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe and join us for every episode. For more helpful information on the topics of company culture and employee engagement, visit us@upyourculture.com.