ENGAGE 2023: People Development

In this episode, we continue the exploration of our latest company culture and employee engagement report, ENGAGE 2023, by taking a look at the findings as they relate to People Development.  

In this section of the report, we asked questions related to Employee Growth, Recognition and Feedback.  

Joining me to discuss and contextualize it all is the great Stephanie Downs, SVP/Senior Consultant at The Center for Sales Strategy. 

Stephanie brings so many awesome insights to the table, like: 

• How not focusing on developing your people increases the risk of losing top talent 
• Why Feedback and Recognition are not the same thing, but should both be occurring on a regular basis 
• And, lastly, how developing your people begins with understanding their natural talents and what truly motivates them.  

Links:

ENGAGE 2023: The Company Culture Report

Stephanie Downs

Beth Sunshine

Up Your Culture

TIMESTAMPS:
(02:33) Any stats or findings that jumped out to you?
(05:11) When you don't develop your people, you run the risk of losing them
(06:52) It really starts with understanding the individual
(09:49) The difference between feedback and recognition
(11:38) Frequency matters
(15:37) The 5:1 ratio of feedback
(17:40) Any advice for those who manage managers to make sure providing feedback is a priority?
(21:50) The more established the expectations, the more motivation across the team is going to increase

Transcript

Beth Sunshine: (00:15)
Hello and welcome to Culture Over Coffee, a podcast focused on improving company culture and fostering employee engagement. Every week we chat with experts and thought leaders about the latest information and proven practices you can use to reduce regrettable turnover, increase productivity on your team, and retain key customers. So, pour a cup of your favorite brew and join us. I'm your host, Beth Sunshine, SVP at Up Your Culture in the Center for Sales Strategy.

Beth Sunshine: (00:50)
In this episode, we continue the exploration of our latest company Culture and Employee Engagement Report. ENGAGE 2023 by taking a look at the findings as they relate to people development. In this section of the report, we ask questions related to employee growth, recognition and feedback. Joining me to discuss and contextualize it all is the great Stephanie Downs SVP Senior Consultant at the Center for Sales Strategy. Stephanie brings so many awesome insights to the table, like how not focusing on developing your people increases the risk of losing top talent. Why feedback and recognition are not the same things, but should both be occurring on a regular basis. And lastly, how developing your people begins with understanding their natural talents and what truly motivates them. Hi Stephanie, and thank you for joining me today for Culture Over Coffee.

Stephanie Downs: (01:50)
I was looking forward to this.

Beth Sunshine: (01:52)
I have too. I've been really looking forward to this, and I think one of the reasons why is because people development what we're gonna talk about today, it's really one of my very favorite subjects. So this is gonna be fun.

Stephanie Downs: (02:03)
It's a very important subject, .

Beth Sunshine: (02:05)
It's now, as you know, this season we're digging into ENGAGE 2023, the company Culture Report. And we're discussing all of the stories that the data tells today, like I said a moment ago, we're gonna focus really specifically on people development. I don't wanna wait any longer. Um, you ready to jump in?

Stephanie Downs: (02:25)
Yep. Let's go for

Beth Sunshine: (02:26)
It. Okay, good. So first of all, before we really get into, I did prepare some questions for you, but, uh, I wanna start just by asking, were there any stats or findings that jumped out to you when you were thinking about people development and reading through the report?

Stephanie Downs: (02:40)
Yeah, there was really, um, I know we're gonna talk about a variety of 'em, but there was really three that stood out to me. Um, and so I'll, I'll just review those quickly. But one was, um, related to the topic of feedback and the difference of the percentages of feedback giving from new employees versus those that have been there over three years For new employees, it was like they get 78% felt like they got really, you know, feedback on a frequent basis where if you'd been there over three years, those numbers dropped drastically, which was a little, um, surprising for me. Yeah. Um, the other one that, um, really stood out to me too was that over 50% of people are unsure what is expected of them. Um, I had an, oh my goodness moment when I read that number, I have to admit, it shocked me a bit. Wow. And then the last one was really that 36% of managers fill undervalued, um, or underappreciated. And 24% of frontline employees felt undervalued or underappreciated. And that made me sad. .

Beth Sunshine: (03:45)
Yeah. I can see why. Because if you feel unimportant or undervalued it sure. It's hard to show up day after day and really give it your, all

Stephanie Downs: (03:53)
You. Yeah. The, the loyalty would not be there. I mean, there's a lot we could discuss with that, but that, that one stood out to me.

Beth Sunshine: (04:00)
Yeah. Yeah. Tho those were all very interesting. We are gonna touch on a couple of those today, but, um, that's a, a nice, it's good for me to kind of hear where your head is when and what surprised you when you were reading those. Um, now I was a little surprised by something you just mentioned. Um, you just in general, how many people feel as though that they're lacking something, they're feeling undervalued or lacking feedback, just sort of feeling that sense of lacking. And very specifically what jumped out to me was how many people said that their company is, is not focused on development. And like you said, nearly half of the respondents said that their company is either only somewhat focused or even not focused at all. Mm-hmm.  on employee development. Yeah. And you work with sales leaders all the time. Right.

Stephanie Downs: (04:47)
And

Beth Sunshine: (04:48)
You are very intentional about developing mm-hmm. , helping them develop their people, improving their performance. So I'm curious, um, I know that number surprised you, you shared that, but yeah. What do you think that means for these organizations?

Stephanie Downs: (05:02)
Yeah, it's, um, it is such a missed opportunity, um, for so many reasons. Yeah. But I'll share a few things. But, you know, I mean, in our environment, and it really has been this way for a, a couple of years, um, finding people is so difficult and recruiting people is so difficult. And I feel like when you have people on your team that are feeling that way and that percentage being so high, you're at risk of losing people. Mm-hmm. , you're at risk of having turnover. You're at risk of having regrettable turnover. You know, not sometimes if you have non-performers, that's, that's one thing. Right. But you don't wanna lose your top people and your top performers. That's, that's not a good thing. There's a lot of consequences to that. Um, but if people don't feel like they're being developed, they're not gonna be as loyal. Um, culture is going to be impacted. I mean, it's obviously a direct sign of, um, employee engagement and the lack thereof. Mm-hmm. , um, revenue is not gonna grow with the rate that it should be growing. You may lose key, key accounts or key clients, or there may not be growth related to key accounts if people aren't feeling like they're being invested in, um, you know, from their leaders or from the company.

Beth Sunshine: (06:22)
Yeah. You, you paint a scary picture. And I, I don't disagree with anything you said. I think the human condition is always, um, you know, desire to grow. People wanna grow, they wanna improve, they, they wanna be better than they were yesterday. Agreed. And companies owe it to them to help with that. So how, how can companies do a better job? How can they invest in their people mm-hmm. , um, give them the development opportunities that they're obviously really craving and just do a better job here.

Stephanie Downs: (06:51)
Yeah, for sure. So it really starts with understanding the individual, it, understanding what's important to the person. Because what's important to you from a development standpoint or what's important to me, maybe two different things, right? Mm-hmm. , there may be some overlap, but not always. Um, we need to understand that. We need to know if they want, you know, more training and more development opportunities or professional growth. Maybe they wanna grow in their position within the company. Maybe there's a learning opportunity they need, but we need to uncover that. We need to know that and what motivates them. Um, and all of those pieces. Because then as a leader, you can focus on that. You can recognize that, support 'em, create growth plans for that, um, and help them get or accomplish what it is they're trying to accomplish. But I think it starts with a conversation starts with talents. , really

Beth Sunshine: (07:45)
Good point. I don't disagree there either. And it's a really good point just that you, employee development's gonna look different for different people. Right? I I find that really interesting.

Stephanie Downs: (07:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, cuz I mean there's skills development, there's experience development. I mean, you know, even development on how salespeople are working with accounts and field. I mean, there's a lot of different aspects to that, but there's also the, the motivation side to me too. You're likely to get more out of somebody if you really understand what it is they're trying to accomplish. Right. Learning and development and professional growth.

Beth Sunshine: (08:19)
Yep. For sure. Now, you mentioned feedback earlier in your surprise with that number. I do wanna make sure we spend a little time on that. I am a sucker for good feedback. You actually, you very specifically give some of the best performance feedback I've ever seen, which is why I especially wanted you to do this segment. And you know, I've actually included you in a number of situations in my career, um, because I wanted you to provide feedback. So this is, this is especially for you, I'm really interested to mm-hmm. , see what you think of those findings. We learned that while 55% of the people who took the survey, they reported receiving specific and meaningful performance feedback regularly and regularly. I mean daily or weekly, pretty good,

Stephanie Downs: (09:07)
Right? Consistent

Beth Sunshine: (09:09)
consistently 55%. I mean, that's you, but maybe not the person next to you. One out of every four people, they only receive it four times a year. And more than 5% said that they never, never receive meaningful feedback at all. So I need your help here. No. Can you help us understand the difference, first of all, between feedback and recognition? Cuz they're not the same thing.

Stephanie Downs: (09:36)
No. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I I will answer that question, but can I also start with, if you're only doing it one in four times or 20, don't even bother .

Beth Sunshine: (09:45)
That's true. Not really

Stephanie Downs: (09:47)
Sincerely. So, okay, so the difference between feedback and recognition. So

Beth Sunshine: (09:53)
Feedback start there.

Stephanie Downs: (09:54)
Yeah. So feedback is, um, geared to performance or geared to behaviors or given or geared to the work that's being done. Um, and I'll give you an example on that. So you think about feedback, if a manager is infill with the salesperson, they're observing the call and they're there to observe, not to participate in the call. When you leave the meeting, you download, right? You have a debrief on what happened, what went well, what went well. That's feedback. Those are the, the feedback side of things. But recognition, think about it more in terms of the pat on the back or the job well done or celebrating wins. You know, if you have, you're a sales leader and you're running a sales meeting on a weekly basis and you start the sales meetings with wins, right? That's recognition.

Beth Sunshine: (10:46)
So if I share someone's name and tell say, you know, so-and-so made a big sale this week, that's not feedback. That's

Stephanie Downs: (10:55)
No, that's recognition.

Beth Sunshine: (10:57)
That's recognition. Yeah. So thinking specifically about, I love your example about going in field and afterwards coming out of that, you know, doing that debrief. I like the way you said what went well more than once. Cuz I know that's your technique. Yeah. You think about what went well. Okay. What else went well? Okay. What else went well? Well, cause we wanna be real heavy handed, helping people think about what they did well so they can do it again. Um, so I, I like the way you slipped that in. Any other tips? Anything you can think of that managers and leaders can do to just up their game here? Either more regularly provide feedback or just do a better job at it?

Stephanie Downs: (11:35)
Yeah. Um, so some suggestions on that. Frequency matters. Mm-hmm. Um, frequency absolutely matters. We need to do it ver we need to do it often. We need to be consistent. We need to actively look for those opportunities. But it also needs to be specific mm-hmm. , you know, saying, great job on the call today. Yeah, that's all good and fine, but that's not good enough. You need to be specific in the feedback. Something like you, uh, when you were, uh, building rapport with that prospect, you know, whatever the scenario is, you're building rapport with that prospect. Here's what I observed that you did so well with that. You need to be very specific in the feedback. It also needs to be sincere. It can't just be the, I know I should be saying something, so I'm going to say something. It's gotta be genuine. They've gotta know that you're doing this for them and to help them and to help them get better. Um, it's gotta be meaningful to them and not, you know, flippant. Like you're just going through the, you know exactly the ropes and providing it, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, and it needs to be in the moment. It, it doesn't, if you observe something, you should address it. Then you don't need to wait a week to respond to provide feedback or two weeks. It's not as meaningful. It doesn't meet any of those criteria actually at that point. That is so in the moment.

Beth Sunshine: (13:02)
So the annual performance review where someone hears that six months ago.

Stephanie Downs: (13:07)
Yeah.

Beth Sunshine: (13:08)
. That's not effecti,

Stephanie Downs: (13:09)
Huh? Yeah, I am. So I understand that there has to be performance reviews on an annual basis. Let me start by saying that mm-hmm. , I understand that, but that's not feedback. That's not, that's an, that's more of an HR function of an employee, you know, employee review. Mm-hmm.  feedback is daily or in the opportunities. It should be on a consistent basis though. And consistent. It's not one outta four times a year

Beth Sunshine: (13:35)
. No, it is not

Stephanie Downs: (13:36)
Four times a year, whatever. . Yeah.

Beth Sunshine: (13:38)
We've painted a good picture, I think, of what feedback should be and, and how it can be beneficial. I once heard someone say that it was kind of like an athlete who watches a game tape or watches film after a practice. Mm-hmm. , they're able to see what they did. Yeah. Well, so they can do more of it. Do it better. Mm-hmm. , you can't do that when you're on the field. I think it's, it's the same thing here. Yeah.

Stephanie Downs: (14:03)
Yeah.

Beth Sunshine: (14:04)
Yeah. Okay. So, so interesting. Um, we were talking about feedback, we were talking about the frequency of feedback and the quality of feedback. The one thing we, we should talk about first

Stephanie Downs: (14:17)
Five door

Beth Sunshine: (14:18)
Before I move on, is how it feels to the people who are receiving it. Yeah. One of the questions we asked on this survey was simply, do you get enough, you know, whether it's one in time, you know, a year or 10 times a year or every day. Like, do you get enough? And what we learned is that 76% of people report that they do receive enough feedback from their manager. I found that promising. Now, of course my mind probably did what what you did, which is thinking that 24% of the people or one out of four don't get enough. They go home at the end of the day feeling like they're not sure how they did, they're not sure what they can do to improve mm-hmm.  mm-hmm. . So what practices can you recommend to help all people leaders improve the quality of their coaching conversations so that people go home at the end of the day feeling like they know how to do it better?

Stephanie Downs: (15:15)
Yeah. So, um, there's really a few different things that come to mind, um, come to mind here for me. Um, and I don't know that I'm gonna answer this exactly like you're asking it, and if not, let's keep talking about it. But when I think about feedback, there's really a cadence that you should be in with feedback. The things I already mentioned about in the moment and sincere and specific, the frequency, all of those things. But really the five to one ratio of feedback. Um, and again, I don't think I'm gonna answer this exactly like you were asking it, but, um, but really the importance of five positives to one constructive. And it doesn't mean you have to give five in the moment to be able to give the one, but you should have the pattern that more often than not, you're delivering five positive messages of feedback. They're going to hear you better, they're gonna listen, they're gonna know that you're paying attention. They're gonna know that you're invested in them and that you're trying to help them grow. So when you do give them that constructive feedback, they take it to heart and they listen if you're always, and that's also, they recognize that you're paying attention to their strengths. But for people, if they only hear that negative, they kind of tune that out because it's just, it's too much. Right? Right. Um, you gotta balance it with the positives to the constructive.

Beth Sunshine: (16:37)
It's interesting. I, I think you've answered it in a really meaningful way. It's interesting that balance doesn't mean even five to one.

Stephanie Downs: (16:46)
Right. It's

Beth Sunshine: (16:47)
Balance. I find that really interesting. So you have to be very, very heavy handed with feedback that feels a little bit better. So the window is open for the feedback that may not, it's, that's a, and

Stephanie Downs: (16:59)
It's received, right?

Beth Sunshine: (17:00)
Yeah. So I think you even said heard like it really sinks in. That's great. Okay, so now comparing how employees, frontline employees, so like in a sales organization, how a salesperson mm-hmm.  feels compared to their manager was sort of interesting too. What we found was that employees are much happier about the amount of feedback that they receive than their managers are. Mm-hmm.  and 30% of man managers really feel and express they need more feedback. Um, 11% of managers said that they never received meaningful feedback at all. So a little more critical numbers here. Any advice for those who manage managers to make sure this is a priority?

Stephanie Downs: (17:46)
Um, yes, cuz it should be, right? It's, um, and so I would think about things like, um, a few different things. Typically speaking, if you're doing a one-on-one, a sales leader, say it's a general manager to a d director of sales or a director of sales to a local sales manager, almost always there's probably an agenda that you're following and your one-on-one, your weekly one-on-one meetings, right? There's some, um, there's probably those highlight of things, whether they're KPIs or leading indicators. An example would be a talent bank. That is probably something they're measuring or they should be measuring or they should be paying attention to. So I would think about what those things are as an organization that you really are paying attention to. And then the, the leader, the top leader, I guess manager of managers, , um, they should be actively looking for those opportunities to pay attention and, and to acknowledge those, whether it is, um, number of people added to a talent bank or the recruiting efforts that they have. I mean, even an example would be on an annual basis when they're rolling out the annual strategic plan, if they're leading a team meeting, a manager should be paying attention. How did they do in that meeting? Did they convey the message clearly? Did they get buy-in from the room? There's lots of opportunities that they can, um, that they can tap into. They just need to be looking for those opportunities. But I would align it with the agenda from one-on-ones or KPIs that they're paying to as paying attention to as an organization.

Beth Sunshine: (19:21)
Smart. So you're, you're focusing on things that really matter. Yeah. It's interesting. Somehow we, people reach a management level and, and I guess the assumption is they don't need,

Stephanie Downs: (19:33)
They don't

Beth Sunshine: (19:33)
Need it. They accomplished Yeah. That next level. So they don't need feedback anymore. It's really not true. Thank you for speaking to that. Um, alright, shifting gears a little bit. I wanna talk about setting clear expectations. Anyone who has ever read my personal user guide knows that I like to have extremely clear expectations. I wanna know exactly what success looks like. Cause if I don't, I'm not gonna be able to set smart goals, prioritize my work. It's a real hot button for me. But what I've learned over the years is most people actually feel that way too. Um, maybe not to the extreme that I do, but I, I think it's extremely important for most people to have those kinds of expectations. So I, I really was looking forward to seeing what the survey had to say about that. What it showed is that nearly half of employees and so frontline employees and one out of every four managers, they lack the insight they need to be successful. They, they don't have the, the direction, the, the clear expectations that they need to feel as though they can put it all out there and, and they know they're gonna be successful. So my question to you is, how do we help with, with that? How do you specifically help organizations get better at setting expectations? Mm-hmm.  giving people the clarity they need, you know, helping them feel as though they can reach mm-hmm.  that goal.

Stephanie Downs: (20:58)
Yeah. Uh, there is a lot that I could say on this topic. First, , that percentage shocked me. I, it, it actively shocked me. I had a moment of reading that saying, you have got to be kidding. I could not believe that that number was that high. Because you think about it and then I'm gonna answer your question, but you think about it, how do people know where they're going if they don't know? It's like

Beth Sunshine: (21:25)
A lot of people who don't

Stephanie Downs: (21:26)
, right? It's like, okay, we're gonna shoot for a target, but I'm gonna spin you around in circles as fast as I can and blindfolded and then tell you to go and get there. I mean, there's no roadmap

Beth Sunshine: (21:36)
To a shout to you go faster, go faster, go faster. ,

Stephanie Downs: (21:40)
, I don't get it. Um, but back to your question though, how, um, how can we help people get better at doing that? Um, think about it too from this standpoint. The more established the expectations, motivation across the team is gonna increase. They're gonna, there's more buy-in that's gonna be there. Um, they're gonna know the direction they're going and the goal they're trying to receive. And they're also probably gonna have a plan on how to get there or they're gonna create a plan on how to get there. You can't have any of those pieces if you don't know what the end goal is or what the expectations are in their job. And I also think it causes a little anxiety if people don't know, right? Uh, that, that feels stressful to me even just talking about it and thinking about it. So I can't imagine how people would feel.

Stephanie Downs: (22:28)
Um, but with that being said, how can, how can people get better at this or leaders get better at this or organizations get better. I think it's really important. A few things is that there is some strategic planning meeting, a team meeting some if it's an offsite or if it's an annual meeting, that we're really conveying the vision of the organization, where we're going for the next year, how we're going to get there. But the next piece of it is really drilling down to the individual and how each person and the expectations of each person, what we expect of them, but also what what they want as well. It's a two-way street. It's just, it's not just about us saying here's the expectations. We should have a conversation with the people and ask them what they want. Expectations here as well. . Yeah. Right. Um, cuz it truly is.

Stephanie Downs: (23:26)
It's both. Um, but, but once we've established that and we said, okay, here's where we're going. Here's what's happening. Here's the expectations for both of us. We need a routine of check-ins. We need a routine that says once a week or once a month or once a quarter, whatever the right thing is, a routine to make sure how are we measuring against those and how can we keep improving 'em or what new action plan may be needed or new steps that may be needed. The one-on-ones is always a great place to do that. It's the perfect place to, to execute on some of that.

Beth Sunshine: (24:05)
Great insight. Great insight. So glad we're doing this today. All right. Last question. Last question for you. If you could recommend one thing that all company leaders should do, anyone who's listening today in a leadership role when it comes to growing and developing their people, what would that be?

Stephanie Downs: (24:28)
Yeah, so I have three things in one . Perfect , you have to understand the natural, the

Beth Sunshine: (24:35)
Stephanie

Stephanie Downs: (24:35)
. That's right. I'm bundling it into one. How's that? I love, um, you have to understand the natural talents of the people on the team, and you have to understand what motivates them and as individuals, what's important to them. And then craft a specific plan for each person to help and grow and develop them. They need their own individual plan of, um, growth. And then look for all of the opportunities to execute on the plan, whether it's one-on-ones or infield or, or whatever that is. But have that cadence to make sure that it's happening. There's too much at risk if you're not growing and developing your team.

Beth Sunshine: (25:14)
That's exactly right. And and I I love that you keep leading us towards the z individualized thinking. Yeah.

Stephanie Downs: (25:21)
Yeah.

Beth Sunshine: (25:21)
Very smart. All right. I, I could do this all day with you, but I wanna thank you Stephanie for taking the time, um, spending time today talking about Culture over Coffee with me. You have shared a ton of great information and ideas. I know you're leading a workshop. You're kicking off a, a workshop series even today on Talent Focused Management, which is all about this. So, um, we were really lucky to be able to steal your way and, and get you to come share this insight with us. I know our listeners probably, um, many of them will wanna connect with you if they haven't already. So we'll drop your LinkedIn information in the show notes so they can connect. And then also I'm gonna add a link to the Engage 2023 culture report so anybody can dig into the data, find what interests you, the things that give you that. Oh my goodness moment. Um, look for those. I'll also give a link to a blog post that we published recently on People Development. Um, Stephanie, you gave us some great stuff today. This may even have a few other tips that people might lean on. And as we wrap up, I'll just remind anyone listening that a strong culture, a strong company culture starts with you. Thank you so much.

Beth Sunshine: (26:37)
Thanks so much for spending time with us on Culture Over Coffee. If you've enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe and join us for every episode. For more helpful information on the topics of company culture and employee engagement, visit us. Set up your culture.com.