ENGAGE 2023: How and Where We Work

In this episode, we’re taking a look at How and Where We Work in light of the recent findings from our latest company culture and employee engagement report, ENGAGE 2023.  

In this section of the report, we asked questions related to how employees, managers and company leaders are continuing to adapt to hybrid and remote work models.  

Helping Beth explore how people are feeling about this new world of work is Matt Sunshine, CEO at The Center for Sales Strategy. 

Matt brings some great insights to light, like: 

• How company leaders who fail to clearly define the rules of a new work model leave employees feeling anxious and frustrated 
• Why hybrid and remote work allows companies to hire the very best people 
• And, lastly, why encouraging people to return to the office should only result from asking the question, “what problem would that solve?” 

Links:

ENGAGE 2023: The Company Culture Report

Matt Sunshine

Beth Sunshine

Up Your Culture

TIMESTAMPS:
(03:12) 86% of those surveyed prefer hybrid or remote work
(04:30) Remote/hybrid grey areas cause anxiety
(07:58) Are you finding that work models are affecting recruitment in the companies that you work with?
(10:10) If you want people to come into the office, give them a good reason
(12:36) Based on our survey results, people believe that the ideal work model includes only one day a week in the office
(15:00) If there was value to going into the office, I think people would go
(17:02) Is there an hybrid ideal balance?
(22:08) This year, 71% leave in-person meetings feeling more engaged than they would've felt if it was a zoom meeting. Last year, that number was 80%.
(24:38) The cost of meetings
(27:19) What problem will getting everyone back into the office solve?

Transcript

Beth Sunshine: (00:15)
Hello and welcome to Culture Over Coffee, a podcast focused on improving company culture and fostering employee engagement. Every week we chat with experts and thought leaders about the latest information and proven practices you can use to reduce regrettable turnover, increase productivity on your team, and retain key customers. So, pour a cup of your favorite brew and join us. I'm your host, Beth Sunshine, SVP at Up Your Culture in the Center for Sales Strategy.

Beth Sunshine: (00:51)
In this episode, we're taking a look at how and where we work. In light of the recent findings from our latest company Culture and Employee Engagement Report, ENGAGE 2023. In this section of the report, we ask questions related to how employees, managers, and company leaders are continuing to adapt to hybrid and remote work models. Helping me explore how people are feeling about this new world of work is Matt Sunshines, CEO of the Center for Sales Strategy. Matt brings some great insights to light, like how company leaders who fail to clearly define the rules of a new work model, leave employees feeling anxious and frustrated. Why hybrid and remote work allows companies to hire the very best people. And lastly, why encouraging people to return to the office should only result from asking the question. What problem would that solve?

Beth Sunshine: (01:48)
Hey, Matt, and welcome to Culture Over Coffee. We talk a lot about culture, you and me. Sometimes it's over wine or diet Coke. Um, I've been really looking forward to sitting down with you today and getting your thoughts in this kind of a format. I think this will be fun. As you know, this season we are digging into our annual culture report, ENGAGE 2023, and we're discussing all of the stories the data tells. And today I'm especially excited because we are focusing on a very hot topic, something I know you talk about a lot mm-hmm. , um, and that is work models. I know you find yourself talking about this with clients all the time. Yeah. Um, I'm especially anxious to get your perspective on these findings. So let me start by asking you, I'm just gonna jump in with a broad question. You spent a lot of time with the report. Were there any stats or findings that just really jumped off the page to you?

Matt Sunshine: (02:42)
Um, loaded. Actually, I don't think that there was anything that was shocking to me. Yeah. Um, really, um, I I, I don't think it'll be shocking to anyone that's paying attention either, but I do think what it does does is it reinforces what you probably have observed. Um, like for example, and I know we're gonna get into it, but I'll pull a couple that just resonated. Yeah. 86% of those that surveyed prefer, uh, hybrid or remote work. I mean 86%. It's like, we're not kidding around. I mean, they really want hybrid work. Um, so that was the one, uh, overall that just kind of like, was like the, the, the, uh, well, of course that's the number. Right. Um, it's very interesting to me. We'll, we'll get into it, but that was the one

Beth Sunshine: (03:44)
Yeah. Yeah. That jumped out to me too. And, and you're right. We will get into that. Um, let me ask you, it's clear to me after reading this that companies are continuing to adapt to the new world of work. The survey showed that one out of every four people now reports to an office every day. Um, that's not a lot. 45% work in a hybrid model and 30% work fully remote, not just today. You know, who knows what tomorrow will bring. Um, but but a big switch from years past. So how are the company leaders that you work with regularly, how are they dealing with these changes?

Matt Sunshine: (04:22)
Yeah. So, um, all sorts of ways. Um, sadly a lot of them are not dealing with it. And I think that's the biggest cause of concern from my point of view. So here's, here's the, i in real life, this is what happens. A manager says, you know what? A leader, a leader in an organization says, you know what? I think, um, this is the way we should do it around here, but I'm not gonna mandate that I'm gonna let everybody just do what they think is right. That sort of grayness is actually causing more anxiety Yeah. Than anything else. I mean, the leaders that I'm talking to just wish the company would just give them a policy and just say, Hey, this is what we're doing. We're in Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or we're in Monday through Friday, or we're in Monday through Wednesday, whatever. Just simply tell us what the rules are and then we can decide. But leaving it gray leaves, uh, a lot of people frustrated and, uh, and causes more anxiety than, than it probably needs to have. Um, what am I seeing the most of? I, I'm, I'm seeing hybrid and what I'm seeing the most of is three, three days a week in the office and, and two days not, or four days in, and one day not. And that one day typically is a Friday where they work from home day. That's becoming the norm.

Beth Sunshine: (05:57)
Yeah. Interesting. Uh, I'm glad you mentioned that about the anxiety, the greatness causes, because I think a lot of company leaders do that because they want their managers. They, they want the

Matt Sunshine: (06:10)
Best intentions,

Beth Sunshine: (06:11)
Best intentions, and yet it, it, it backfires. Very interesting. Okay. So from your perspective, you're working with clients that are, you know, mainly hybrid, but I know you also have clients in other work models. When you look at in-office, hybrid and remote, in your opinion, is one model better than the others?

Matt Sunshine: (06:31)
No. Um, I, I don't think one model is better than the other. I think it depends on, um, the, the business. Mm-hmm. , uh, depends on what you're trying to do. I mean, I'll be silly, but if you're running a retail business or you're running a restaurant, it'd be hard to be hybrid. Right. You need people there. Well, I, I, but I, I think, um, some businesses and some cultures and some, um, the way you serve, the way you serve your clients and the way you serve each other, um, being completely remote or being hybrid is perfectly fine. And others, um, it'd be a big mistake to be mm-hmm.  hybrid or completely. So I think you have to know your situation and, and, uh, make decisions based on that.

Beth Sunshine: (07:17)
Mm-hmm.  interesting. And then be black and white, really clear. Set up those guardrails. Yeah. Okay. So let's get into that stat that you said really jumped off the page. I, I was also fascinated to find that roughly 86% of those surveyed want to work either hybrid or fully remote. Only 5% of employees and 15% of managers prefer in office. And that also surprised me that breakout, it, it's clear how important it will be for companies to keep that in mind. It's a, you know, when they're recruiting, when they're trying to attract new employees, um, boy, that that's gonna play a big role into it in, in what they're doing. So are you finding that work models are affecting recruitment in the companies that you work with?

Matt Sunshine: (08:04)
Sure, but no, no more than they ever have. Um, okay. Right. I think that's always been a really big deal. Not only, um, uh, where you work, um, but how often you work. Does the day start at seven 30 and end at four 30? Does the day start at eight 30 and go to five? Does it, you know, do you have flexible depending on if you have kids or not have kids? Are some folks allowed to get in at seven, work at seven to four and others are able to work a nine to six? I I mean, I think all of those things have always been really important, um, decisions. Same with where is the office located? You know, for some people, if you're two, three miles away from your office, maybe you act and, and you live in an apartment, maybe the ability to go into the office is exactly what you need.

Matt Sunshine: (09:00)
Cuz you don't have enough room in your apartment. But if you live 30 miles away and there's traffic and it's gonna take you 90 minutes to get to the office, you might have a completely different point of view. Mm-hmm. , um, also the quality of the office. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that offices, what was there was the appeal, right? Oh, my office is so great, it has this and this and it's located next to great restaurants and we're able to do this after work and Right. So I think all of those things absolutely matter. They matter a lot today. I think people are weighing those decisions when they're making a decision about where they want to work. They're weighing all of it, not just a little bit of it, but all of it.

Beth Sunshine: (09:50)
That makes perfect sense. So what would you recommend to leaders today knowing that they're trying to attract a, a workforce that largely prefers hybrid and remote work?

Matt Sunshine: (10:00)
Yeah, so to me the, the question of getting people to come into the office is what do they need to come into the office for? Like, what is that reason? If, if the only reason why people come into the office is so that you can do a bed check, basically , then that's re that's ridiculous. Oh, you made it in. Okay. Touch base. Okay, now leave. Um, so I would stress, um, if I was recruiting, and, and by the way, we run a company here that's not a remote workforce, but a work from home workforce, which is very different, right? We are, we are work from anywhere actually. Yeah. Um, uh, business, which is different. These are all different versions of, of that. Um, we stress that as a big advantage for us, the fact that we are able to recruit. So what I say to people, uh, companies is one of the benefits is you don't have to just recruit the best person that lives within 20 miles of your building. Um, you can just recruit the very best person that you can find. That's a big advantage. Um, but, you know, I think that what I would recommend to leaders is that they should sell their strengths. They should sell what they're doing. And if there's a, if you wanna stress the fact that you bring everyone together and there's this great collaboration and sense of team and the way you do it, then if you're truly doing that, then you should stress that. You should make a big deal about that.

Beth Sunshine: (11:34)
I love that. And for those that have, they're required their people to all come into the office knowing that only 5% of employees want that. 15% of managers want that. I like where you started too. You need to have a reason. There needs to be something there that makes that worth the commute for those who, that isn't their preference. Interesting take. Alright, so let's dig into the hybrid model specifically. Um, because hybrid can look really different at, in different places. Um, one thing that has become really clear to me over the years, the last few years is that determining you're going to use a hybrid model is only step one for company leaders. And that right there is a big decision. But then they decide we're gonna allow for hybrid, and then we need to define what that looks like. And that can actually be the more challenging part in my experience, um, because it can look different for everyone. Now, most people, uh, who are outside, currently working outside of the office at least part of the week, based on our survey results, they believe that the ideal work model includes only one day a week in the office. One day, like you were saying, potentially Friday, um, 81% of those surveyed insists that no more than two days should be spent in the office. And I know that's not what every hybrid work model looks like. So first just what are your general thoughts on this?

Matt Sunshine: (13:01)
Yeah, so generally I would think that the majority of those people don't see any value of being in the office . Right? Right. That what, that's really what they're saying is I don't see value at being there. And, and I think to really understand that, you need to think about why is it that we used to go to the office, what was it about the office that, that, that made us do that and want to do that? It was a few things. Number one, it's where you went to get information mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. , there was no other way to get information besides going to the office. I mean, it, you go, you go back, you know, 25 years or whatever. People were not even using email the way they used it today. Um, we didn't have cell phones or we didn't have, we didn't have smartphones.

Matt Sunshine: (13:53)
I, I should say. Yes. Um, the other, the other thing is in order to get collateral material that you need, and, and so I'll take it from my point of view, which is the sales arena and the, the revenue production arena of, of businesses, in order for a salesperson or a sales leader to get, um, their pricing or to get the collateral material mm-hmm.  that they needed to present their company, that was all held at the building right at the mothership. Right. You, you had to go it, the collateral material was usually, usually on a wall with lots of racks. And there was, and, and you'd grab what you needed, you'd pull it out, what you needed there, there was a, uh, the, the inventory analysis, the pricing analysis took place at the office. So you needed that. Today, we don't need that. All of that is available on, on your phone or on your computer.

Matt Sunshine: (14:51)
You can get to that any way you want. So people are not seeing the value at going into the office anymore. If there was value to going into the office, I think people would go, I think people would say, you know what, that makes sense. I, I need to, to have that, that I, I'm gladly go there. But to make people come in simply so they can sit at a desk and do their work the exact same way. They could sit at a desk at home and here's what's really happening. So now you make me go into the office and when I go in there, no one else is there. So I walk in and it's a ghost town, you know, they, I mean, it's the, the office is built for 30 or 40 or 50 people and there's three people in there because not everyone has the same days that they're working hybrid or, or not the same times that they're working.

Matt Sunshine: (15:47)
So now, now you've upset me. So now, right. So now I've, I drove 45 minutes to get to the office. I lept everything in there. You know, I hook up, I I'm sitting at my desk, no one else is here. Right. There's none of this collaboration that's supposed to happen. Right. So I, I think that's the problem. And so if you wanna solve it and, and, and hey, managers that say it's really important because we want the collaboration. They're, and, and I, I know, I remember that was good. Then get everyone together at the same time and make there be collaboration.

Beth Sunshine: (16:24)
I like that. Well, you may not even have anything else to add, but I was going to ask you, what would you say to company leaders that are trying to find the ideal balance of hybrid? You know, when they, is it two days? Is it one day? Is it three? You know, I'm hearing from you, whatever it is, there needs to be a draw in the office. There needs to be more than a bed check. That was a great term. Yeah. But anything else you would add as far as literally scheduling the hybrid schedule?

Matt Sunshine: (16:55)
Like things that they could do?

Beth Sunshine: (16:57)
No. Like, would you recommend, um, one day a week, two days a week, oh, three days a week? Is there, is there an ideal balance or not?

Matt Sunshine: (17:07)
You know, I, I think that depends on the type of business that you're in and what you're trying to accomplish, and maybe the tenure of the employees. Um, and you know, I think it's different if someone is brand new when there's a lot of learning that has to happen, um, that's different than maybe someone who's been there several years who, who knows all of those things. And maybe them coming into the office every single day is, is not that important in their career. Um, or where they are in having success. Mm-hmm. , um, I think it's a worthy, I think it's an important discussion. And rather than knowing the answer to that question, I think the important thing is to have a process to, a value to, uh, to ask the right questions to determine exactly what you need for your business. Uh, one universal answer would seem, would seem the wrong direction.

Beth Sunshine: (17:59)
Yeah. I, I would agree. I think it, the ideal looks different from, from business to business. What I really find interesting that you just shared is that could also look different from person to person. That, you know, how long you've worked there really does matter, and that there may not be a, a, a perfect policy for everyone. So Yeah.

Matt Sunshine: (18:18)
Yeah. We'll take it even further. I think it also depends on maybe the city that you operate. Mm-hmm. Right? Because if you were in a, a very urban city, uh, where, where everyone, the, in a downtown area and the majority of your employees work downtown and they work in apartments, that they don't have a spare bedroom that they can have as their office. And the commute to work is a walk versus a drive. They might actually really like coming into the office. I, I could, that wouldn't be a far stretch for me versus if you're in more of a rural area, um, or a suburban area where people are living 30, 40, 50 miles away and they're some traffic and now they're driving an hour and a half and they also live in uh ha houses where they are capable of having a spare, a a spare room that they can convert into an office. Makes sense. Well, that's makes sense. Those are two different scenarios.

Beth Sunshine: (19:19)
Very. Yeah. Okay. So the data shows that managers feel differently than direct reports on this subject. If you dig into that, which I know you did. Managers overall definitely value in office time more than their employees do. Um, I think you've already answered this question I was gonna ask you, you know, should work models look different for different roles I'm hearing? Yes, for sure. My next question is, what would you say to managers who feel uncomfortable about their employees spending the majority of their working time outside of the office? Because there are a lot of managers who are kind of steeped in the way we used to do things, and it's very hard for them to have employees that just do their thing and, and they don't see them physically every day. Do you see that in the clients you're working with?

Matt Sunshine: (20:08)
Sure. Yes.  at at, absolutely. And, um, they'll evolve.

Beth Sunshine: (20:15)
Takes time.

Matt Sunshine: (20:16)
Takes time. Okay. It's not what they're used to. Um, they're just not used to that. You know, they, I mean, if I can't see you, I don't, I don't trust that you're working and, and that's an un that's an unconscious bias. Um, because they'll say, they'll say the words, well, of course I trust that they're working, but they don't act that way

Beth Sunshine: (20:39)
Because they wanna see them every day.

Matt Sunshine: (20:40)
Yeah. And again, if you wanna bring people in because there is gonna be collaboration or brainstorming or training or a new launch or, or stuff like that, by all means, then bring people in if that, if you want that to be the way you do it every day, you want to have a, a morning pep rally every single morning and bring people in and that pep rally's worth it. And the people that come are like, I wouldn't miss that. If, if you made it voluntary, I would be there. Draw 'em in, make it, make it exciting.

Beth Sunshine: (21:12)
Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, one thing I'm, I'm hearing a lot of, and I, I bet you are too, is it's really changing what hiring managers are looking for when they are recruiting and selecting new employees. Because they need to pay a lot more inten attention to, can this person work autonomously and could we trust them? Correct. Yeah, you've probably seen that as well. Okay. Beyond the day-to-day work model, let's talk about how people are meeting these days. And you alluded to, you know, the pep rally and, and meeting to draw them in with something that's meaningful. One of the most interesting changes in this data from last year, and my perspective involves the preference for in-person meetings. Last year, 71% reported leaving those in-person meetings feeling more engaged than they were with a virtual, I'm sorry, this, this year. 71% leave their feeling more engaged than they would've felt if it was a zoom meeting, if it was virtual. But that's dropped last year. That number was 80%. 80% felt more engaged, more energized. So first, why do you think that number has dropped so much?

Matt Sunshine: (22:26)
Because the pendulum swings back and forth . That's why, because so when, when, uh, in, in April of 2020 when everyone started staying home, um, uh, everyone, everyone reached out and said, oh my goodness, what are we gonna do? People are hate being on video and they hate doing this, and they wanna come into the office and they're mad that they can't come into the office. And I remember saying to everyone, it's okay. They'll figure it out. You'll see six months from now, everyone will love doing these virtual meetings. Everyone will love it. They'll have so much time back, they're gonna love it. And sure enough, that's what happened, right? The pendulum swung and everyone's like, I don't wanna go into the office. I, I like doing virtual. I can do it all. And then now the pendulum's swinging back the other way on that.

Matt Sunshine: (23:17)
It's like, well, now I'm sick of virtual meetings. Now I want to come in and do a live in-person meeting. And they're more fun and more energized, they're more energetic. I think pendulum just swings back and forth and, and, uh, I think some meetings are perfectly fine to do virtual and some meetings you should definitely do them in person cuz it's good to get everyone together and interact and it's the stuff that happens when the meeting isn't happening. That is really cool. And, and, and, and sparks all of that stuff. I think there's a balance, uh, of both of those. But I do think that they're right now, cuz people haven't seen each other in a really long time, professionally, business people that maybe haven't been around each other, I think they do like to get together and, and share, share stories

Beth Sunshine: (24:01)
Makes sense. Even with the drop off, the vast majority of people still feel more engaged by in-person meetings. Yeah. Um, so that makes sense. Just the, the togetherness, and I like the way you said it's the stuff that isn't necessarily on the agenda that can spark that. What would you recommend that company leaders do to make virtual meetings more energizing? So they have that same kind of uplift from, from a zoom meeting?

Matt Sunshine: (24:29)
Yeah, so I just saw, I just watched a video this morning, uh, that was, uh, interesting. It was on the, um, on meetings and the cost of meetings, right? And, and so I think that's always something. And so one company's point of view was we should get rid of meetings because they cost too much money. And most of most meetings are just bullet points of things that you're telling people versus questions, things that you're discussing. And another company's point of view was, no, you should still do meetings, you should just make 'em better. And, and, and so I think I lean, I I I actually like both of those statements. I think we should get rid of meetings that are more just talking at people and we should do more meetings where we are doing them better. So a couple of tips to make those virtual meetings better. Is that really what you want?

Beth Sunshine: (25:24)
Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to hear that.

Matt Sunshine: (25:25)
Yeah. Yeah. So make 'em more collaborative versus just updating people on things, right? Mm-hmm. . And, and so there's times that you need to update people. A town hall is a great example of updating people on everything, but you should also do q and a and let people have some input. Um, so number one is, um, uh, be collaborative. I'd also say this, um, don't, as the leader, don't do all the talking. Think of yourself as the host of the show, not the star of the show. You're the host of the show. And let let others be the star of the show. I think that would be a, a, a great thing to do. The third thing is, um, just because you said a meeting for one hour does not mean the meeting needs to take an hour. Uh, if the meeting is really only a 30 minute meeting or a 15 minute meeting, there's nothing wrong with a 15 minute meeting. They don't all have to be 30 minute or one hour meetings. Um, so I would just focus on making your meetings better and a quick icebreaker that we learned, uh, you and I talked about recently Yeah. That I'll put out there. I didn't invent this one, but I am gonna use it, is when you start your virtual meeting, just have everyone, um, share what they're currently wearing on their feet.

Beth Sunshine: (26:40)
. I do love that because in this kind of world it's interesting. It makes people laugh. Who knows. I mean Right. You probably don't wanna know what's on my feet right now. Right. Um, interesting. Okay. Very good. Last question for you. If you could recommend only one thing for company leaders to do when it comes to identifying and using the optimal work model for their organization, cuz like you said, it's gonna be different for everyone depending on the city, depending on what they do. What would it be? What would that, that single recommendation, if you could boil it down be

Matt Sunshine: (27:17)
Yeah, wouldn't that be great? Um, yeah, so I would focus more on answering the question of what is it that we want to accomplish? What is it that we want to be known for? And, and start there versus what can we do to get everyone back in the office? And, and I think that's what I, that's the mistake that I hear too often is leaders say, okay, we need to have a meeting to discuss what we can do to get everyone to come back in the office. And when I'm a part of that, I usually stop everybody and say, Hey, before we talk about how we can get them all come to come into the office, can we have a conversation of what is it that we're trying to accomplish by getting them all to come into the office? What problem will getting everyone back into the office solve? Mm-hmm.  like, what are we trying to do? And I think if you approach it that way, you'll get better outcomes. Um, and again, uh, there, there I, we have several clients that have been very successful at getting people back in the office. And I would think that the people that work there would act are actually really enjoying it. Mm-hmm. . Um, but to your point, most are hybrid.

Beth Sunshine: (28:30)
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I, I really like that was a great, great thing to end on because it's not, what problem are you solving? The big question, not how do we get them back in the office, but what problem are we solving? A lot of times I think the problem companies are trying to solve is culture. They believe still that people need to be physically together, they want a stronger culture. And what we know is you can actually solve that problem in any one of these work models. Sure. So, great, great way to end. Thank you Matt, for taking time to, uh, sit today and have some culture over coffee with me. You've shared a ton of great information and ideas like you always do. Um, I'm sure many of our listeners are all already following you on LinkedIn or connected with you, but for those who aren't, we're gonna drop your LinkedIn information in the show notes so they can connect with you. And I'm also going to add a link to the Engage 2023 company culture report because there's so much in there and we've just, we're not gonna be able to get to it all this season. And I want people to be able to dig in a bit more. So thank you for joining me, and as we wrap up to anyone, to all of our, our listeners, remember that no matter what role you play in your company, a strong company culture starts with you. Thanks everyone.

Beth Sunshine: (29:54)
Thanks so much for spending time with us on Culture Over Coffee. If you've enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe and join us for every episode. For more helpful information on the topics of company culture and employee engagement, visit us@upyourculture.com.